Fortunately already a policy in the Army and Air Force, word on the street is that the Chief of Naval Operations has issued a policy that Messianic “Jewish” chaplains will wear the cross and NOT the Jewish chaplain device.
This is marvelous news, as it is a good step in keeping these people from misidentifying themselves and preying (praying) on unsuspecting Jewish service members.
Now, if only we can continue to ensure they don’t intercept Pesach seder kits…
EDIT:
From “Messianic Daily News” (http://messianicdailynews.com/)
Upon arriving for his first stage of training Michael was told he would have to wear the Cross of Christianity instead of the Tablets signifying Judaism or he could not continue to train until the Naval Chaplaincy Board made a determination as to which lapel insignia should be worn by a Messianic Jewish Chaplain.
Michael notified the Chaplain School command that as a Messianic Jew the proper symbol of his faith would be the tablets of Judaism and not the Christian Cross and requested the Navy reconsider. However, he was told that the decision came from the senior Chaplain Command and nothing at that time could be done. He must don the Christian Cross or go home and await a final decision from the Navy. And so, Michael went home.
The decision requiring Messianic Jews to wear the Christian Cross was made officially on November 26, 2008 by the President of the Navy Uniform Board, Vice Admiral M. E. Ferguson U.S. Navy Deputy Chief of Naval Operations (Manpower, Personnel, Training and Education) (N1)
This decision essentially bars Messianic Jews from serving as chaplains within the U.S. Navy because it would require them to wear an insignia inconsistent with their faith and belief system. As a result of this decision Michael Hiles has had to decline the opportunity to begin the supersession process to become an active duty chaplain within the Navy.
Oh, boo hoo for the poor Messi-maniacs. Nevermind that it would force legitimate Jewish chaplains to share their insignia with a group inconsistent with their faith and belief system. Allowing these impostors to wear the tablets would be a religious version of false advertising. The cross’ inconsistency with their faith notwithstanding, if a Jewish sailor went to him for spiritual counsel, how could that sailor reasonably expect Talmudic wisdom from someone who graduated from a Jesus-y “yeshiva?” Given the shady way in which Messianics operate, I wouldn’t expect any of these would-be chaplains to offer complete candor and tell anyone that they are not, in fact, Jewish. We already have Chaplain Perez of the Army speaking at Holocaust remembrance activities for 3rd Infantry Division, implying Jewish legitimacy. Do we really need more line blurring?
I’m truthfully all for finding them their own insignia that is compatible with their belief system, but anything that could confer on them any sense of Jewish legitimacy should be out the window. Thankfully, the Navy sees it this way as well.
You make some valid points…which are almost lost in your support of negative stereotype.
For what its worth, all the negatives you listed re: the tablets are already experienced by those of the Christian faith in the miltary, since the cross is the default badge for someone who isn’t Islamic, Jewish, or Hindu. As one example, Unitarian Universalists wear the cross, but don’t believe the basic tenets of Christianity.
Like you said, you go for spiritual counsel, but you have no idea what you’re going to get…
I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not ever going to present anything positive about Messianics.
I’ve witnessed what you’ve talked about with regards to Christians and their denominations. It might be the same, but with conversion efforts all around us, the one thing that Jews have been able to count on since the tablets were embraced as insignia was that the chaplain in question is indeed Jewish, even if he/she is Reform or Reconstructionist or whatever.
Messianics already demonstrate a penchant for deception when it comes to attracting members, by reaching out to Jews from the former Soviet Union or Falash Mura. They give charity along with their message to groups that lack, in many cases, a fundamental Jewish education that is usually enough to combat Messianic overtures. The military demographic, especially in the enlisted ranks, is quite similar in that it often includes secular or assimilated Jews, sometimes from mixed backgrounds. This constituency is equally vulnerable, which is why every little bit helps.
In Chaplain Perez’s own words…no “Jewish sister” I go to shul with would be curious if she were well-versed in her own background. Fellas like this chaplain would be that much more dangerous if his true nature were obfuscated by tablets.
While as a religious Jew I’m obviously ecstatic at this news, I’d also like to explain it from a more logical side of reasoning.
Jews believe in a certain faith. Regardless of Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc. they believe a certain thing, it’s just a matter of degree. Messianics, however, simply don’t believe that. Whether their belief is closer to Christianity or not is irrelevant, and as mentioned above, the default non-badged religious symbol is the cross, which works out great since that’s what they believe.
Actually, what JD speaks of is essentially the same thing…graduated degrees of Christianity vs. Christian groups that depart from that “certain faith” common to most Christian denominations. A Unitarian Universalist might hold beliefs that are antithetical to other forms of Christianity, and therefore a Protestant/Baptist/whathaveyou might also object to the wearing of the cross by these groups for the same reasons we object to the Messianics using the tablets. They claim to be the same, but normative practices say notsomuch.
For my part, I do understand that the Messianics, regardless of what we say about them, do not embrace the cross as a symbol of their faith. A copy of the “Jewish New Testament” and associated commentary was dropped in my lap once. It’s an English translation with some conjecture-based Hebrew and even some Yiddish terminology thrown in to make the case that theirs was the Jewish Messiah. The author takes great pains to replace “cross” with “execution stake,” because of what the cross has represented in the annals of subjugation of the Jewish people. Move of sensitivity or cynical attempt to conceal their true nature, you and I would probably judge the latter, but it is accurate that the cross is not a part of their symbology.
In the words of my grandmother (or SNL’s “Chanukah Harry” skit), “how about a nice fish?” I’ve seen Messianics use an amalgam of that fish that people put on their cars with a Magen David. Could they not push for their own symbol, one consistent with their faith and conveying truth in advertising?
Precisely, but I think therein lies the point- Why are there only three or four Chaplain symbols? Shouldn’t every faith be allowed to introudce their own badge, at least for approval? The problem with Messianics even so, like you said, is that they prefer to “look like” the Jewish star because of imagery…
Well explained.
I do have some reservations about more Chaplain’s devices, however. I suspect were the issue to be raised, every sect would demand one; the “solution,” to prevent chaos, would probably be a generic, indistinguishable “religous counselor” insignia instead.
That said, I respect the stand to “defend” the Jewish Chaplain’s device. With no offense intended to any party, I wonder if there is a statistically significant number of Messianic Jews in the military to “justify” a Chaplain’s position…?
I’ve met two in 15 years. In one case, it was a non-Jew with some Jewish background, and in the other, it was an individual from an assimilated background who wanted to fit in somewhere. Both would have been happy with their own chaplain–and this is revealing–they were generally mollified with Protestant or Baptist chaplains. Either awareness of their own Judaic pastiche or lack of familiarity kept them from trying to insert themselves into the military Jewish community.
I’m sure this isn’t the last we’ve heard of this issue.
Y’all are crazy. I’m an atheist and can’t see how an atheist chaplain would wear a cross or any other religious symbol. Refusing to put up with that religious bullsh*t is part of the whole idea of being atheist, after all.
However, the world’s most famous Jew was Jesus Christ himself, even if John Lennon is bigger. Jesus said he came to fulfill the Jewish law, which would entitle him to wear the Jewish symbols. He never consider the cross a symbol of his Jewish faith! When Jesus returns in Triumph,I suppose the Navy is going to make him wear a cross? I’d like to be here to see that instead of being raptured up with all those damn Baptists.
The world’s second most famous Jew, Einstein, repudiated his Jewish faith when he was 15 years old. He was later offered the presidency of Israel. Modern Jews are nothing if not confused!
I guess that would require that a returned Jesus join the American Navy.
Drinking and commenting should never be combined.
Well I think therein lies the point- What would the need for an atheist chaplain be? What “religious” needs could one who spurns religion have?
But like most atheists, you unknowingly take the Christian position, simply because that’s what you’ve been exposed to, and at no fault of yours.
“However, the world’s most famous Jew was Jesus Christ himself”
Says who? How do you know he even existed? From the New Testament you deny? No historians of the time even mention him! And even if we did have proof, his statement that he came to fulfill the Jewish law is itself anti all Jewish thought. The writers of the NT succeeded in creating a new religion and it should be treated as such. Judaism doesn’t believe in the Messiah as being someone who matched Jesus’s description, and hence we don’t believe he was, even if we put aside the original problem of how we know he even existed.
You bring a number of non-Observant Jews who never learned anything about their heritage and say that just because they happened to be famous they represent all of modern Jewry??? Ask any Yeshiva boy of ten and he’ll tell you very specifically why he believes what he does. You may, of course, disagree with it, but we’re anything but confused.
The Messianic awakening is ‘messy’ –my understanding is that most of it is in it’s ‘infancy’ (or maybe even ‘toddling’) stage. I was also wondering why those Chaplains didn’t just use the “Grafted-In” symbol of the Fish/Star/Menorah –that’s the symbol that was discovered on a lot of items in Israel & indications seem to point to the early followers of Yahshua using this symbol to identify themselves as people of ‘The Way’.
“Awakening.”
I think many of us would agree that it should go back to bed. It can grow out of its infancy, but it still won’t grow “legs.”
Most of us also don’t care what they use, so long as they’re not “borrowing” other symbols.
“This decision essentially bars Messianic Jews from serving as chaplains within the U.S. Navy because it would require them to wear an insignia inconsistent with their faith and belief system. As a result of this decision Michael Hiles has had to decline the opportunity to begin the supersession process to become an active duty chaplain within the Navy.”
Um, excuse me. The cross is not inconsisent with the beliefs of messianics, afterall they are Christians. It seems Michael’s goal (since he bowed out rather than continue in his potential military role) was in serving his own interests rather than that of our military. Shame.
It is a fine day when the military, often a hotbed of Christian evangelism themselves, makes the distinction between authenitic and immitation. We already have to share the yellow pages ‘Synagogue’ section and even the term ‘Jew’ although clearly the latter is a clear hijacking. Now we need to stop returning Jews to Israel with evangelical money.
Does anyone know how the “Military Chaplains want to be able to pray in Jesus’ name at all times” turned out?
Thanks and shalom!
I see must of the respondants don’t know much about the Messianic Jewish movement. The movement, yes is somewhat in its infancy (1960′s), but they do know what they believe: Yeshua (Jesus) is their Messiah, the B’rit Chadasha (New Testament) is equal in authority with the Tanakh (Old Testament), the Mishna (Oral Torah) is ok….but is not the authoritive Word of Elohim (G-d). Most Messianic follow Shabbat (Sabbath- 7th day)worship and adhere to Kosher laws and observe the Moedim (appointed Holy Days & Festivals). Most do not follow the Church holidays such as Christmas or Easter being that they are not mandated or originate from the teachings of Yeshua or His Shiliachim (apostles). The symbol of the cross is seen as a symbol of persecution to many Jew & Messianic Jew/Gentile alike; for good reason if you know your Church History!!!! Now, granted the military uses only the religious symbols of the worlds more dominant religions, I don’t see why the symbol issue could not be debated or another symbol like the Star of David with the Cross or Dove be used by messianics instead (if approved). At this point all Messianic Pastors/Rabbi’s must realize that this problem is small compared to the confusion and mistrust by both Rabbinical Jews & Christians. Both groups have suspicions that are for the most part overblown and wrong. No true Messianic Jew would hide his nature or belief in Yeshua in order to falsley creep in to convert Rabbinical Jews; for this would be against the teachings of the HaMasiach Yeshua! I think we need to step back from the accusations until it plays itself out a little further. The Messianic movement is growing and will have to be recognizesd as part of an ancient sect of Judaism once known as the Notzrim (Nazarenes/The Way).
Thanks for taking the time to comment.
Our problems are not overblown and wrong. I saw with my own two eyes a MJ congregation in Rochester, NY, prey on and attempt to poach Jews from the FSU who were being supported by a variety of local synagogues. They did so not by identifying themselves correctly as Messianic Jews, but just as Jews. I’ve seen Messianic clergy link arms with Promise Keepers and pray for our conversion. Infamously, we’ve seen former VP candidate Sarah Palin link arms with a Jew for Jesus (I know, I know, not quite the same thing) who’s message for Israel is one of conversion.
We distrust because we are right to distrust. If MJ’s were capable of honesty about their movement, they would acknowledge that the number of long-time, shul-educated Jews pales in comparison to the numbers of folks who were either by condition of birth or assimilation already on the fringes of mainstream Judaism, and thus were easy targets. I know firsthand…Hebrew literacy across the board in normative American Jewish circles is low, but it’s practically nonexistent in MJ circles, except when incorporating key parts into a very confounded and inconsistent across the board liturgy.
There is no authentic sect of Judaism believing in Jesus (or your hypothesized Yeshua nomenclature) that dates from now until then as an organized movement. This makes it historically impossible and dishonest to recognize MJs as part of any ancient sect. It is a modern development, reverse engineered from Christian proof texts with a smattering of rabbinic Jewish ritual sprinkled on top. So when you make the broad argument of antiquity as proof of Jewish authenticity, it falls flat academically, and diminishes credibility.
I share many thoughts in common with Rabbis Boteach and Schachter-Shalomi, that perhaps it’s a good move for Jews to read some words of Jesus as Jewish wisdom. I see nothing wrong with finding the commonalities between Christianity and Judaism. but because of the nature of where MJs either deliberately by doctrine or by nature of some of their false pretenses, that middle ground cannot be a dogma that cherrypicks from either.
I know it must be terribly lonely being a Messianic. We’re always here to help you do t’shuvah and find the truths that Judaism holds for those who would return. Otherwise, I’m afraid you will never find sympathy in this forum.
Appreciate the honest dialog….
Your comments on the Messianic were interesting, but on ancient Messianic Judaism and it’s place in Judaism…..you need to do more research.
Messianic Judaism, or what historians call the Jewish sect ‘Nazarenes’ (Notzrim/The Way) were followers (Talmidim) of Rabbi Yeshua (Jesus) who they believed to be the HaMashiach (Anointed One/Messiah) of Israel. This sect was one of many Judaic sects within Israel around 30 C.E, such as the Pharisee’s, Sadducee’s, Essenes, Herodian’s, etc. These followers of Yeshua never left the teachings of Elohim (G-d), His Torah or the established customs within scriptural Judaism. It is because of their Judaic lifestyle that the Gentile(Goyim) led Christian Church passed laws against them to push them out, while Rabbinical Judaism (established after the 2nd temples destruction in 70 C.E) forced the Nazarenes out of the majority of the synogogues by the 2nd century by adding a specific prayer that would identify them.
By the 6th century, most Nazarenes (Messianic Jews) were absorbed by the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Gnosticism, and later Islam.
Unfortunately, the Jew who believes Yeshua is the Messiah is rejected as no-longer being a Jew, and the Christain Church expects them to be gentiles…abandoning the Torah and Moedim!!! They are stuck between two religious groups that have shown much ignorance in the last 1,000 years.
What you say about Messianic groups you’ve witnessed may be true. If so, I agree with you that these are despictable practices and should be stopped. No one should misrepresent their religious affiliation! That is why I suggested another religious symbol for future Messianic Chaplins.
The Messianic Jews I worship with do not advocate shoving the testimony of Yeshua down Jewish throats, but do encourage dialog whenever permissable.
I believe the Messianic Movement like any other faith has its bad-apples, but this does not negate their rights to hold to doctrines shared by both Judaism & Christianity. Even todays Rabbinical Judaism (Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed) does not follow certain tenants of Torah or is in disagreement to what portions they follow and what rabbi infuences them the most. I have worshipped with Conservatives and Reformed Jews and see that there are varying opinions even within Judaism about how to handle the issue of Yeshua!
I think Christianity and Judaism need to step back and reexamine the Messianic movement that they feel so threatened by! History tells us that there were Jewish believers (Nazarenes) who continued to practice Judaism such as even going to the Temple during the first century! Check your history books, not just what the rabbi’s say. Even the Christian Church has done much to destroy, cover-up, and even deny the Nazarenes because they would not reject the Torah & Jewish customs!!!!!
If you’ll read history & even the B’rit Chadasha (New Testament) you see that Yeshua (Jesus) never tried to establish another faith apart from Judaism. Yeshua never claimed to replace or destroy the Torah, but to put it on firmer footing as most rabbis tried to do at the expense of the health (lives). Unfortunately the Christian Church filled with gentiles abandoned the Torah, Moedim (Elohims appointed times) and embraced pagan practices & holidays. Rabbinical Judaism has also errored in its application and understanding of Torah. Neither is without some faults.
Both world religions can learn from each other, and from the Messianic Jews. I know this is bitter medicine to both. It was to me, but truth is truth.
Thank you for your time.
Just to add on to what the Sergeant said, and keeping in mind that this discussion is not whether or not the Messianic movement is true (although I’m sure you’d get plenty of takers, myself included, if you did want to get into that) but whether or not it’s a sect of Judaism, I think it’s a pretty straight forward issue.
Just because Jews do something doesn’t make it Jewish. I could bring in plenty of examples from Hollywood, but I’m sure you get my point. Just because a Jew sings a song doesn’t make it a Jewish song, and the same goes with everyday actions. With the same coin, just because Jews worship a Jew doesn’t make it a Jewish religion. Judaism says straight out in a number of places, both in the Tanach and in later texts, that Christianity, or any belief that they hold, is not Jewish. Did you know that according to Jewish law, a custom that Jews have kept for centuries, if adopted by the Christians, must be stopped because it’s now a Christan custom?
Even if we put aside the issues that Sgt. Kresge mentioned, which I’ve personally witnessed as well, we can still say that any belief based on Christianity, no matter what you call the people, the house of worship, the clergy, is not a Jewish sect, but a Christian one.
Just as a side note, I noticed you mentioned Yeshua instead of Jesus and Brit Chadasha instead of New Testament. I’ve always wondered, what do you call Isiah? Or Jeremiah? Or Ezekiel? Do they get the honor of being called by their real Hebrew names?
But again, whether Messianic Judaism is correct or not is an issue, but not one for the DoD to concern itself with. What their issue is, and what we believe they judged correctly on, is whether or not it’s a sect of Judaism. And according to all traditional sources which existed for hundreds to thousands of years before Messianic Judaism was even a concept in someone’s mind, it’s definitely not.
James,
I must respectfully disagree. Most “messianic jews” are not Jews at all (most are Baptists with Kippot). Likewise, they ALL believe in the vicarious atonement of Jesus at calvary. Therefore, the cross is neither foreign nor abhorrent to them.
Those of us ‘incomplete Jews’ (this is what messianics think of us since they consider themselves completed jews) cannot coddle this Christian movement any more than the Hindus can the Buddhists or the Muslims the Bahai faith. Their sole intent is to usurp, replace and convert us. Anyone telling you differently is trying to sell you something. We ain’t buying. Shalom!
James,
The historical followers of Jesus and the messianic movement of today have little or nothing in common. You are comparing apples to grapefruits. If the messianics were simply following the ideas of their Rabbi (Jesus) today then there would be little issue. Most of us Jews have a Rabbi that we lean on for guidance and understanding. This is what Peter and his contemporaries did. But you cannot mix vicarious atonement with Judaism. And why is it that all interfaith dialogue from your side of the isle is in reality just another way of trying to change our beliefs? Shouldn’t it be a way for us to learn from one another without hope or expectation of conversion the other?
James,
It’s awfully presumptuous to make a statement “Rabbinical Judaism has also errored in its application and understanding of Torah.” Where? How? Based on what doctrine?
What extra-biblical history supports your assertions about Jesus’ intentions, regardless of whether they are true or not? A mere byline in Josephus’ writings? What historical sources support the premise that early Jewish followers of “the Way” still made pilgrimages to Jerusalem, when there are definite historical sources that speak to travel restrictions imposed on the Hellenized Jewish community that the apostles seemed to focus on?
Calling the New Testament by a Hebraicized name, too, does not confer a sense of real Jewish legitimacy to the text. The fact is, the gospels and apostolic letters used by David Stern in his Hebraicized translation includes exactly what was decided on by non-Jews many years after the movement ceased being a Jewish one. You cannot deny that using proof-texts vetted by Roman clergy does not and simply cannot legitimize MJs as Jewish, for it comes along with centuries of interpretive baggage.
I’ll quote directly from the MJAA’s statement of faith, in which they quote Paul’s letter to the Ephesians: “For by grace we are saved through faith, it is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9).”
This interpretation, like so much else, stems from Augustine, who lived a long time after Christ, which certainly falls outside the spectrum of Jewish thought.
Also: “…the later writings commonly known as the B’rit Hadasha (New Covenant), is the only infallible and authoritative word of God”
This derives directly from the Lutheran concept of sola scriptura, and there couldn’t have been a more vigorous anti-Jew than Martin Luther. You will find many Messianic Jews that believe as a core tenet, in spite of fracturous movement issues, in both the Christian understandings of divine grace and sola scriptura. If you were to take the Christian bible at face value, even Jesus in his teaching style didn’t seem opposed to interpretive anaylsis of scripture as it was in his time, something Luther didn’t seem to grasp.
So, therefore, we see that the very elements that erased Judaism from Christianity are the very same folks you end up deriving your key doctrines from, Jewish acoutrements aside. This presents an intellectual impossibility that strikes at the core credibility of the Messianic Jewish movement.
Again, Chaim is right, this has little bearing on what the Navy determines regarding uniform devices, but if you ever want to examine why there exists so much Christian and Jewish distrust of your movement, it’s because the constant attempt to demonstrate a common movement stretching back 2000 years is absolutely impossible. If Messianics simply said, “we are a movement of Jews and goyim who are attempting to reacquaint Christianity with its Jewish roots meanwhile adopting doctrines that evolved outside of Judaism, well after the lifetime of Jesus himself*,” and along with that, drop “Jewish” from your nomenclature, you’d fare much better intellectually. As it stands right now, there is nothing to be learned from a movement claiming to be Jewish when there is scant evidence to support that claim. Apostasy is apostasy, I am afraid.
* Supposed resurrection notwithstanding.
To Kresge,Ovadiah, & Chaimss: I guess that no historical records, being it Christian, Jewish, Roman or whatever will prove to any of you that there was a Messianic Sect of Judaism among others around 30 C.E. It’s easy to deny when your not willing to look for the historical records. I used to do this myself in order to defend my positions. The Tanakh through the prophet Yesha’yahu in 6:9-10 speaks volumes on this point.
The ancient Messianic Sect known as the Notzrim (Nazarenes), which finally disappeared around the 6th century was fully Jewish; that is why Romanized Christianity and its various church councils passed laws to exterminate the group and anything deemed to be Jewish (read the Council of Nicea – Constantine’s Letter, 325 C.E). The Romanized Church and its leaders broke from the original roots of its Judaic foundation after the Apostles (Shiliachim) died out. Various Church Fathers such as Origin, Tertillian, Clement, Esuebius, and Augustine created false teachings through Greek philosophy and allegory to imprint a strange/new doctrine upon Christianity, seperating it from the original teachings of Yeshua and His talmid.
As far as Rabbinical Judaism….. this path of Judaism started after the destruction of the second Temple in 70 C.E. The only two significant sects of Judaism to survive the first Jewish Revolt (68-73 C.E) were the Pharisees of the House of Hillel and the Notzrim (Nazarenes). The Nazarenes survived after escaping to the city of Pella, while the Pharisees moved to Yavneh (Jammina). The Pharisees received permission from Rome to call a session to reorganize the Judaic teaching minus the Temple…. which led directly to the Rabbinical Judaic Movement and teachings Of Torah and the Mishna (oral Torah) written by Prince Judah around 200 C.E. Later the compulations of the Jerusalem/Babylonian Talmud portions were revered as equal to the Chumash (Torah written by Moshe).
The final and complete separation of the Notzrim and Rabbinical Sects was due to the second great Jewish Revolt (132-135 C.E) led by Sh’mon Bar Kochba, who backed by Rabbi Akiva declared himself the long awaited HaMashiach (Messiah) in order to rally Israel against the coming Roman legions ordered in by Roman Emperor Hadrian. The Notzrim rejected Bar Kochba’s messianic claims and abandoned the rebellion; for the only messiah they would follow was Yeshua! Even other Rabbinical rabbi’s rejected Bar Kochba claims and criticized rabbi Akiva’s backing of Bar Kochba (read your Talmud). After Rome crushed this second revolt, Rabbinical rabbi’s blamed some of the revolts failures upon the lack of support from their Notzrim brothers. This directly led to the severing of most ties between the Notzrim and Rabbinical Sects. Rabbinical leaders passed laws forbidding the Notzrim to enter their synagogues or to participate in Jewish Councils (Beit Den). With this action and those taken by the Romanized Church the Notzrim were squeezed into extinction within a few short centuries.
It was not my design to directly link todays current Messianic Movement with the past Notzrim. I only wished to make a point that the Messianic Jews of today (when studied) are not that different theologically or historically from the Notzrim of the first six centuries (C.E). Though there are no direct historical links between the two groups, there have always been a remnant of Rabbinical rabbis that have come to follow Yeshua and His teachings (with sometimes the result of being cast out of their community & synagogue). The Messianic movements of today and its various groups wish to claim a relationship with Yeshua as their HaMashiach while maintaining the rights to their Jewish heritage. As said before, I do not defend any stealth policies by any of these groups (which all do not do as you believe).
As for Rabbinical Judaism making errors…. If you ask a practicing Jew if a woman can be a rabbi and you will receive different interpretations of Torah from the Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed groups! This doesn’t include the interpretations of their local rabbi’s. The Reformed group just ordained their first woman rabbi last month, but the Orthodox, and most Conservatives have rejected woen this position of leadership. Also some groups such as the Orthodox lift the writers of the Talmud to equal authority with the writings of Moshe, but not all are in agreement on this position either.
Sorry if I ruffled some feathers on this point, but facts are facts (like apostacy = apostacy). The only thing to fear about true dialog is the fear that good reasoning will prevail at the expense of long held biases that were never scriptural to begin with. For some people their will always be mistrust & conspiracies around every corner! Though past history often requires every Jew to be cautious, it should not shut itself off from future dialog or communications with other belief groups. Appreciate the debate even if I have upset a few veiwers.
James,
Respectfully it appears that you are the one digging in and ignoring what everyone is saying to ‘defend your position’. No one has significantly challenged your ‘historical’ posts on early Christianity or Jesus. But in your most recent post “WAS” is the operative and key word. You are trying to use an extinct 2000-year-old sect to legitimize modern messianics. You yourself said they died out 1400 years ago. And no, in reality the two share nothing in common. Do you likewise believe Puff Daddy and the Rockettes to be the same? I’m not saying that there may not be an individual or two amongst the messianics who believe the way Peter and James did (following their Rabbi as I spoke of earlier) before they were ‘straightened out’ by Paul. Maybe we have misjudged you and you are one of them. So, are you willing to state for the record, right here and now, that you do not believe that your sins were forgiven by Jesus’ ‘sacrifice’ as the cross? If you do not so believe, my follow-up question is What advantage is there to Jesus over traditional Judaism? If you do believe his blood atoned for your sins, then you are not Jewish. End of discussion. A 12-year-old girl can call herself a Boy Scout every hour of every day, but that does not make her one. As I said before, the cross is neither foreign nor abhorrent to the modern messianic. Apparently being truthful is. Otherwise this guy would have accepted his position and his insignia and served his country without hesitation.
Oh, don’t worry about ruffling any feathers, we knew what we were getting ourselves into
What really struck me, however, is that you call someone who believes in Jesus a non-Jew, who the Catholic Church expects to throw off the Torah, but does the Messianic movement keep the Torah? Have you ever checked your clothing to make sure they didn’t contain a mixture of wool and linen (Vayikra 19:19 and Devorim 22:5, 22:9-11)? Do you wear Tzitzis (Bamidbar 15:38) and say the Grace after meals (bentching) (Devorim 8:10)?
Or do you (and/or your Rabbi) wear a Yarmulke, say Kiddush on Friday nights, Have a seder, light Chanukah candles (or keep Chanukah at all for that matter)? These are all Rabbinical in nature, not Biblical.
And furthermore, how do you eat meat? Devorim 12:21, which deals with the slaughtering process, simply says “in the manner that I have commanded you,” without expounding. Where was it commanded? And how do you know what to blow on the “Day of Blowing” (i.e. Rosh Hashona) (Vayikra 23:24)? The Talmud is what deals with all these things.
What you call Rabbinical Judaism (and you’re right about the history stuff,) is what today we call Orthodox Jewry, with the exception that no one thinks that the oral law is as revered as Tanach. In fact, if you have a pile of Seforim (holy books) the Tanach would go on top of the Gemora (Talmud). I’m not exactly sure why you count the Conservative and Reform movements in it, as they specifically don’t keep all of the commandments (I’m not trying to badmouth anyone here, I’m just talking about the label) and don’t claim to have kept the Masoretic line going.
The problem with trying to believe in Jesus and also to your Jewish roots is that it’s impossible. Classical Jewish philosophy and law has always been anti-Jesus since its inception. I’m really not interested in going through all the proof-texts since we’ll be here forever, but every single Jewish source (Nazarenes and Messianics notwithstanding) have singly opposed him. From the Talmudic scholars to Maimonides until today they’ve all spoken with one voice in that. The problem is that you’re trying to sit on both sides of the fence, but each one doesn’t want the other side there.
Personally I’m glad to be having this honest dialog because it allows for things to come out which can’t when everyone’s screaming at everyone else. I’ve always maintained that the internet’s the only place to have such a discussion because no one can interrupt when someone else is posting
Awaiting your reply,
Chaim
James,
The problem, again, and I applaud your honest recounting of Jewish history, is precisely what’s written between the lines of your history. Unquestionably, Christianity draws its origins as a Jewish movement. However, the fact that the only “survivor” from that time period was rabbinical Judaism (though some might argue that the Karaites survived to a degree) makes the case that it is, for all intents and purposes, *the* Judaism.
Derivatives such as Reform and Conservative Judaism (who both have ordained female rabbis longer than last week) still recognize Orthodox Judaism as normative, and generally speaking, Orthodox Judaism doesn’t knock the Jewish legitimacy of Reform and Conservative Jews. In some communities, there’s a terrific amount of cross-polination between Orthodox and Conservative, Conservative and Reform, Reconstructionist and Reform, and so on, especially when we all share one JCC. You can’t even treat Orthodox categories as homogeneous, as there are some opinions that allow for female smikha there. But the bottom line is that Reform, Conservative, and Reconstructionist movements all have their origins in Orthodox Judaism. And further, just because you can’t find a consistent approach across 2000 years of scholarship doesn’t connote “error.” The unity in the scholarly approach, not the conclusions reached, arguably sustained Judaism across the ages.
Where do Messianics find their point of origin? You might establish commonalities between MJs today and 30 CE, but the effective unJewishing of early Christians means most of what you believe *still* has its point of origin outside of Judaism, and depends heavily on supposition. There’s no long tradition of scholarship to support many Messianic practices, and as Chaim points out, what is left that is obviously Jewish are elements borrowed from rabbinical Judaism.
I believe fervently that any middle ground dialog between Christians and Jews *does* require attention to Christianity’s Jewish roots. Unfortunately, that’s intellectual ground not to be held by a movement that, like Christianity, believes in a dead messiah as a prerequisite for eternal reward.
Subsequently, I have no qualms about discussions with other faith groups. I will talk to Buddhists, Christians, Muslims or Scientologists, because none of them presume to identify themselves as Jews. Any bias I have, and many share this, is based on the solid fact that MJs are misidentifying themselves as Jews. By all means, do it amongst yourselves as is your right as an American, but understand that Jews have good reason to be less than enthusiastic about it.
To Chaim & Ovadiah…..appreciate the honest dialog, even though it gets heated at times. I do not believe I and others who follow Yeshua are riding the fence between Christianity & Orthodox Judaism. First: Most Messianic’s refuse to be labled Christian; for they continue to be Jews, rejecting Christian established customs & holidays such Christmas, Easter, and Sunday worship which was enforched by the 3rd & 4th centuries. The Messianic does understand the symbol of the cross that Yeshua was crucified upon, but rejects the cross as a divine symbol of their faith declaration for two reasons: it was the torture instrument of His death & the Romanized Christians used it to forcibly coerce/torture Jews to confess that their concepts of Jesus. No true Messianic would want the symbol of Yeshua death to be hanging around their neck or stuck upon their collar as a sign of their faith! And because they remain as Jews (something you highly disagree with) who continue to follow Torah they wish to be recognized as such (even within the U.S military). As stated before….. I agree another symbol could be used, but the significance of government ‘red tape’ and future court actions would almost make this an impossible option at this time. Anybody with military service would acknowledge this. I would only hope that this individuals goal to be a Navy Chaplin was to be of service to Hashem, country and his compatriots in uniform and for no other reason. Because he could & would not wear the Cross of Christianity, this Messianic stepped back, an option the military gave him. He chose as a Messianic Jew not to be a Chaplin forced to wear a symbol that killed His Messiah/Rabbi and was used as a instrument of cruelty to persecute His people for centuries by the Roman Catholic Church (For this I would commend him). To Ovadiah…. I could go on forever debating what is Torah & what are the traditions of men that the Messianic’s adhere to, but I believe it would only lead to other areas of dispute. Suffice it to only say that most Messianic adhere to the Torah written down by Moshe and as interpreted and lived-out by Yeshua (D’varim 18:15-19, Mattityahu 5:17-20, First Yochanan 2:3-6/3:1-6). They reject most doctrines (Church Council Rulings) except those dealing with salvation through Yeshua as the HaMashiach. Within Judaism they embrace the Torah given by Hashem through Moshe, but reject any claim to elevate the Talmud to equal status (but do recognize it importance with the sphere of Judaism). Last…. the historical reaction of the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem against Yeshua and His talmidim were not shared by all the Jewish population. As stated before, the Jewish sect of Notzrim continued to be seen and worship as fellow Jews until around 135 C.E. Even the Roman Empire recognized this sect as being just another Jewish religious party until around 63 to 90 C.E when Gentile converts spread throughout the empire causing converns for the emperors (check Roman records such as the writings of LUCRETIUS & SUETONIUS, & TACITUS). A good section of the Jewish population did not agree with the Sanhidrens ruling and did not force believing Jews who followed Yeshua out of every synagogue as you have supposed (you need to do more research on this matter). In fact many Pharisee’s came over to the Notzrim during the first decade (30-40 C.E) while continuing in their stations are religious leaders of their communities. The seperation of the Notzrim as being rejected as Non-Jewish came gradually, not as quick as you believe. It was only after the First & Second failed Jewish revolts against Rome and the decisions at Yavneh around 90-95 C.E that gradually brought about the false concept that any Jew claiming that Yeshua was the HaMasiach were no longer Jews! This position is still held today in charge against any Jews that claims faith in Yeshua. You will not believe this, but the Talmud had positive statements about Yeshua and the Notzrim until these passages were later purged around the 13th century due to the request of rabbi’s due to Christian persecutions within Europe! I do really appreciate the dialog that has happened here. It is my wish that you all be blessed and continue in the Torah, while in being of service to others. Thank you.
To Sgt.Kresge…. Appreciate your response. When I used the word error it is to mean “disagreement” between two or more individuals or parties. The example I used such as women rabbis I felt was a good illustration for this point. Though their is good dialog between the Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed groups, I would like to meet any Orthodox rabbi who supports the position of women rabbi’s. Where two or more disagree on any subject, one or both will claim the other is in “error” of understanding or following a specific text of Torah. I have seen heated debates upon the other matters that have been called as…. “you and the others are in error in this interpretion and application. I’ve also heard the politically correct word “misguided” being used within discussions. I too thank Hashem that there is continued dialog within Judaism. It’s greatest strength is when its people are unified to a shared belief and common cause. Though Christianity and many of its pagan practices should be condemned as non-biblical Torah, its declaration of Yeshua as the HaMasiach should stand firm, even for the Messianic Jew. This one issue has caused the greatest rift between Rabbinical Judaism & Messianic Judaism of today. The prophet Yesha ‘Yahu spoke of this: “He is to be their sanctuary. But for both houses of Israel He will be a stone to stumble over, a rock obstructing their way; a snare for the inhabitants of Yerushalayim.” (8:14). Yeshua prophesied that His claim would be rejected and that His Jewish talmid would be persecuted by their own households. On this one point of Yeshua’s claim as HaMasiach of Israel comes our dividing line as you pointed out. As for where the Messiach Jewish movement claims its starting point. Most would say from Sh’mons’ Kefa’s declaration that Yeshua was (and is the) HaMasiach, (Luke 9:20, Yochanan 6:68). I am sure a few others may have varying veiwpoints on this matter. As clearly stated before Messianic Jews reject the offshot that has become known as Christianity of today and its pagan practices, yet keep an open dialog in the hope that they will return to the original teachings of Yeshua & His Shiliachim (Torah). Fortunately many gentiles are starting to question the church teachings and traditions that are non-biblical and are searching for a return to the original Torah-based teachings of the Yeshua (see Z’Kharyah 8:20-23). As you rightly say… there are no long established lines of connections between the Notzrim of yesterday & the Messianic Jews of today, but what you are failing to acknowlege is that historical records from within the Christian Church & even within the Talmud record the basic facts that Roman Christianity & Rabbinical Judaism led efforts to cut off and vanquish the Notzrim (Nazarenes), which left few records of their existence past the 6th century. A good resource that fills this gap in history is the book:”The History of Jewish Christianity”, by Hugh J. Sconfield, 1936… which can be purchased on Amazon.com). Just because there are few records, does not mean something is less valid or significant in its position of truth! Again, just because some claiming to be Messianic’s does not mean that everyone within the movement supports their stupid actions. Not every action taken by Rabbinical Jews is seen to supported by every Jew within greater Israel. Every religious group has adherents that do unscriptural actions that are not supported by the leadership & group. This does mean that the group needs to re-evaluate and come out plainly againt those who step-out and do things that do not accurately represent their faith or movenment. For me, any Messianic Jew who hides his or her faith in Yeshua in order to gain council with a Rabbinic Jew is not a true talmid of Yeshua & should be thrown out for such activities! A Messianic must stand openly with their affirmation in Yeshua and be willing to share this knowledge with others, even when being rejected. As someone earlier said… falsehood equals falsehood! Rabbinical Jews who know of Messianics who are using these stupid tactics should report them to their synagogues, meeting houses, or conferences. Yet the Scripture tells us to reflect and to reveiw our own positions and responses before taking them before others. It is clearly evident that the actions of all three groups in the past have not always been done with proper sensitivity and understanding before establishing an open channel of dialog. For any Jew, because of the past injustices by the Christian Church and secular governments, should be cautious in dialog and agreements with those outside the House of Judah & Israel. Yet this should not mean a closuer to good debate & dialog because of the actions of a few. I thank you for you kindness and knowledge. May Adonai bless you and your household.
James,
You are absolutely right…following someone because you believe them to be the messiah does not take away your Jewishness. Many messiahs have come and gone, yet NONE have fulfilled the prophecies. May it happen speedily and in our days!
But believing someone messiah and expecting them to forgive your sins or worshipping them are very different. Any Jew who does this, native born or convert, is excluded from the religion of the Jews. A natural-born Jew would still be Jewish from a blood and cultural standpoint but have forsaken the faith of their fathers and are no longer our Jewish brethren from a faith/religious standpoint.
Pauline Christianity and indeed his theology in general (ie the law is dead or fulfilled in any person) is in direct contradiction to Judaism. Peter and James may have been on the right track (I see no evidence that they thought Jesus divine or as the vicarious atonement for their sins), but Paul quickly straightened them out. The author abive is absolutely correct: you cannot mix the two faiths, otherwise you have (and are true to) neither.
May those of you doing so have an easy fast on Thursday. Shalom!
To Ovadiah; Thank you for your reply. I see that the issue of Yeshua as the HaMashiach and the redeemer of ones sins will always be a key issue among us (both Jew & Goy alike). The issue of the HaMashiach, His role as King, Priest, and Redeemer has been hotly debated even before Yeshua birth. The Sadducee priesthood denied even the coming of a personal Messiah, while also denying any future resurrection, the existence of demond or angels. They also rejected the writings of the Navi (prophets) and the Mishna! The Pharisee’s were the complete opposite and embraced the coming of the HaMashiach, a future resurrection, the existence of angels & demons and fully embraced the writing of the prophets (Nevi’im) and other scriptures (K’tuvim). Also they supported the Mishna (Oral Torah) as a viable part of Torah. The Essenes sect had completely rejected the Judaic priesthood of its day due to Roman control of the High Priest office since 63 B.C.E. The Essenes removed themselves out near the Jordan River and sought a purer faith separate from compromises with Rome. The Essenes looked for the HaMasiach that would bring light to all of Israel. Both the Sadducee’s and Essenes were destroyed with the 2nd Temples destruction. The Pharisee sect continued and later developed the Rabbinical type of Judaism from its Council of Yavneh around 90 C.E. Back to the HaMashiach…… Historical records, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls tell us that the Essenes and many other Jews during Yeshua’s time period believed in the coming of Two Messiah types, one known as Messiah-Joseph, the other Messiah-David….one would serve as High Priest, while the other as King of Isreal. Most Jews did not have a developed concept of a Messiah that would fulfill both roles and who would have two comings. One as Redeemer, the latter as Judge & King. Yes there has been many that have claimed to be the long awaited HaMashiach (before Yeshau & plenty since), but even secular mathmaticians & scientist who have examined the prophecies concerning the coming of the HaMashiach have been amazed at the odds of one fulfilling this office. Yet many have openly said Yeshua is the only person of history that has biblically fulfilled the prophecies recorded from the Chumash, Nevi’im, and K’tuvim. It is for us to believe or reject. And I still believe that those Jews who embrace Yeshua as the HaMasiach are still Jews who retain their positions within greater Israel. Today there are a few thousand Messianic Jews In Israel (some are serving within the IDF !!!). They’re citizenship as Jews has not been revoked at this point in time. Now about the Jew known as “Paul”. His Hebrew given name is Sh’ul (Gift of Elohim). This one man has been misunderstood and credited with creating Christianity, while rejecting Torah. If you examine the B’rit Chadasha (specifically the Book of Acts !!!), you will note that Rav Sh’ul was mainly raised in Yerushalayim at the feet of Gamli’el (a Parush/Pharisee & Nasi of the Sanhedrin). Rav Sh’ul continued as a Pharisee even after he did t’shuvah through Yeshua. He also continued to observe the Moedim, and the Torah (he offered sacrifices at the Temple & also went through the required purifications rites after believing in Yeshua! Unfortunately Gentile led Christianity has misunderstood Rav Sh’ul’s Torah teachings (Such as on grace, Torah, Shabbat, Etc.) Even Shimon Kefa (Peter) acknowleged this problem with Sh’ul’s writtings: Indeed, he (Sh’ul) speaks about these things in his letters. They contain some things that are hard to understand, things which the untrained and unstable distort, to their own destruction, as they do other scriptures… ’2nd Kefa 3:16″. It should not be surprising that the goyim would misunderstand Rav Sh’ul’s writting and intent! The main problem within the Notzrim/Nazarene came around 40 C.E, when goyim (Greeks) in Antioch (Who were G-d fearers) came to faith in Yeshua. The Notzrim Council in Yerushalayim (Led by Ya’acov) allowed many days of debate and chose to only place the Noachic Laws upon the goyim. Later the Shiliachim (apostles), both Ya’acov and Shimon Kefa recognized Sh’ul’s position as Shiliach to the goyim. Many Jews and Gentile alike are starting to re-evaluate Sh’ul’s writings. Rightly or wrongly many writers have had their thoughts, ideas and writings misappropiated by individuals and misguided groups. Appreciate the continued dialog. I have never believed Yeshua or Rav Sh’ul established another religion or faith apart from Judaism. Roman Catholism & even Protestants have errored away from Yeshua’s & Sh’ul’s original Hebrew teachings (and some are starting to recognize this fact). May Adonai continue to bless you and your family.
James,
You said “I see that the issue of Yeshua as the HaMashiach and the redeemer of ones sins will always be a key issue among us (both Jew & Goy alike). The issue of the HaMashiach, His role as King, Priest, and Redeemer has been hotly debated even before Yeshua birth.”
While you are correct in much of your historical data, you are incorrect that messiah was the one major difference between the first-century Jewish sects. Judaism does not revolve around messiah. As the Rambam said “One should believe in the over all idea” but it is not the foundation of our belief system. Our faith is based upon our redemption from Egypt, our revelation at Sinai and our relationship with the Almighty based upon those two events and the Torah given to us; G-d’s blueprint for life. Not believing in Jesus does not define us. Some Jews believe in a personal messiah, others believe in a messianic age of universal peace and still others believe that the prophets visualized a utopian dream that may or may not ever happen, depending on man’s actions.
You are also correct that Jesus as the method of forgiveness of sins separates our two faiths. If you believe in such, you are not of the Jewish faith. It is plain and it is simple. People who so believe are Christians of one persuasion or another.
I believe we have discussed this issue past its conclusion. May you be blessed in your search and embrace and practice your faith in the manner you see fit. We will likewise continue to do so. Shalom!
To Ovadiah….. The HaMasiach was one of the key differences between the Jewish sects of the first century and any Jewish historian or theologian will tell you this. The majority of religious studies on the Messiah (even secular studies) will validate this point.
Your are correct in your position that Judaism does not revolve around the Messiah issue, only if you hold to the Judaism since the 3rd century. The Navi, Priest, and Soferim up until the first century supported much more Messianic text with the Tanakh than did the second century Rabbinical Scholar who believed most Messianic text pointed to the nation of Israel, not a true individual Messiah! Your are very correct in the various factions among Judaism and their positions on the Messiah and the end-times, yet this not negate that many still are looking for the promised HaMasiach that the Scripture foretold of long ago.
I still hold that any Jew of yesterday or today who holds Yeshua as their Messiah is still a Jew. This does not make them a Christian either! The practices of Christianity are very far the original teachings of Yeshua and His Shalichim, so most Messianic Jews would tell you that their association with Christianity is based solely upon Yeshua as the Messiah, but would reject the rulings of most past Church Council rulings due to there anti-Jewish/anti-Torah teachings. Yet they remain true to the Torah of Moshe who pointed out that one like him would come to interpret Torah for Israel (D’Varim 18:15-19). Messianic Jews embrace the Torah & the HaMasiach Yeshua and though rejected by many such as you…. does not define who they are as Jews, for this will be decided by Elohim in the end!
As you, I believe we have touched most of the key points on this issue and I have greatly appreciated the dialog & debate with you and the others.
May Adonai bless you and all your endeavors to find peace and tranquility in life. SHALOM!!!
James,
Once again, I must point out that to “hold to the Judaism since the 3rd century” is the only possibility regarding Jewish thought because there was no surviving “minority” opinion in an analogous Jewish movement.
It requires an awful lot of navel-gazing on the part of Christians (or MJs) to assume that downplaying messianism that preceded the destruction of the Second Temple was a reaction to the Jesus movement of the time. The dearth of contemporary accounts of Jesus’s life from the luminaries of the time makes that glaringly apparent.
I would think it’s more historically accurate to understand in context that Jesus, if he existed, was but one of many failed messiahs, and that Bar Kochba was a stronger reason why messianic urges were so rightly quelched. Further, while you make mention of the will of the Jewish people vs. the position of the Sanhedrin against Jesus, the *only* historical support for assertions of Jewish opposition to Jesus (outside of the Gospels) comes centuries later in the Talmud, long after Jews suffered under Christian oppression.
Most accounts, I would expect that the G-d of Israel who was crystal clear in all other prophecies, who plagued Egypt and parted the sea, would not leave us guessing at the end of the day to whether or not an annointed one was indeed amongst us.
The refined view of “current” Jewish messianism, which I’m afraid is lost in this debate, places the emphasis on Jews looking to G-d to deliver such things. The focus is rightly on G-d, not on the individual, which has been nothing but tsuris from Jesus to Shabbetai Zvi. And that brings us full circle back to the nuts and bolts of the debate…the mainstream Messianic movement still holds that Jesus is G-d made flesh, which makes it apostacy, which in turn makes the movement, to put it bluntly, not Jewish.
Throughout the whole “debate,” all you’ve done is quote your own proof texts (obfuscated by every Hebrew loanword possible, considering their non-Hebrew origins) and the Tanakh, or books that themselves offer scant ability to fill in the blanks of Jewish doctrinal arguments. If I translated the Rudyard Kipling treatments of India into the language of the region, does that mean they are authoritative snapshots of life in India?
Indeed, as you said, “Just because there are few records, does not mean something is less valid or significant in its position of truth!” Try passing muster in the Torah-defined mechanisms for a court of law by that line of thinking!
The bottom line is that no right thinking Jew has to wait for G-d to define what a Jew is. As long as you are reading the Gospel of John and nodding your head at the idea that Jesus was G-d made flesh, your set of beliefs are not Jewish.
I strongly urge you to consider the following:
1. Use the accepted Christian names for the books you are quoting. It seems to be a device to disguise the origin of your proof texts, even if well-intentioned.
2. It might behoove you to immerse yourself in Jewish learning from a fully Jewish perspective. In my experience, many Messianics are in the same boat as many of our ba’alei tshuvah, wherein they grow up detached from the Jewish community. I say this because in your last comment, you say in reference to Jesus, “though rejected by many such as you…” This reeks of Christian, er, Messianic Jewish, chauvanism, in that the assumption that rejection of Jesus is in any form the cornerstone of Jewish dogma.
3. Consider joining or hanging out with a real Jewish community and do t’shuvah. If you’re not really Jewish by Jewish standards (i.e. Jewish mother), as is often the case with Messianics, if you would still feel this connection to things Jewish, consider honest conversion.
In both 2 and 3, I think it would be crystal clear to you in short order why your assumptions about Judaism and the Jewishness of your beliefs are treated as absurdities here.
I genuinely dislike departing from the tone here, but there exists an extremely arrogant undertone in your arguments. I paraphrase: Roman Catholics and Protestants are in error, yet I quote the very same texts they use, only with transliterated Hebrew names. Jews are wrong to say we’re not Jews, but we only have a tenuous connection to a movement that ceased to be, in all reality, 1700 years ago. I’m left with the same impression I’ve always held, and I’m afraid I have this in common (I hope) with many other Jews, in that Messianic “Judaism” is still just Christianity wearing a tallit.
To Sgt Kresge……appreciate your negative responses that avoid hisoricl evidence. Our own Talmud gives evidence to His historical existence!!! The writings of other early Jews such as Josephus record Him. While Roman writers and historians validate the existence of this man “Yeshua”, who came to be called Jesus by much of the Western world. Your predjudices has obviously made you very narrow-minded to most historical facts. We may differ and argue over doctrine & theological facts, but your past statements (if he ever existed?) on historical facts holds no water what so ever. Your arguing on this point is built upon a weak foundation that histoical facts easily wash away! No more will I fence with you or anyone that ignores recorded fact. By the way….. Do you believe that George Washington existed? There are only historical writings and a few paintings of him. What about Nasi (Parush) Gami’el? What evidence do you require of them?
By the way….. I will use Hebrew to those portions of Scripture and to those who were Hebrew. If it affends you, it is not my intention, but its something you’ll have deal with. It is my choice to use the original language of the people & their writings. Do you have a copywrite on Hebrew???? I am not using Hebrew in order to cover up or make false pretenses.
I have taken your recommendations to mind. They are valid points, but not the final answer or conditions to be a “Jew” or totally righteous before Elohim. Your points are valid from the point of being active, yet lack a spiritual aspect of having a true relationship with Hashem. The question in doing something or taking action, should be intiated by…..What am I doing this for (what motivates me as a person). For Messianics, such as me its our HaMasiach-Yeshua, who said, “he who loves me must obey the Torah”. That is our staring point. We do, because of our love and faith in Yeshua. We follow the Torah to the best of abilities, but not to gain salvation or righteousness through the works of the Law (or men), but to show our identity in Him who shed His blood for those who believe. We believers are commanded to come together for growth and protection. Appreciate your advice in this area though, but its not something that I’ve taken lightly in my lifetime. I do not feel that I’m being absurd in the statement that Yeshua has been rejected by most Jews such as you who often feel that they are somehow superior in their knowledge and lifestyle than we Jews who embrace Yeshua as the Messiah. Just because you and others reject Yeshua does not mean you stand on a firmer footing with the Torah or in being a Jew! If it makes you feel better, continue believing in this. The final judgement will provide us the light on this subject matter.
I find it highly unusual that Rabbinical Jews have no problem with the man known as Rabbi Akiva who is revered as agreat teacher within Judaism and the Talmud, but have come to reject and despise any Jew who embraces Yeshua as the HaMasiach! I find it unusual because you and others reject Messianics who you feel believe in a false Messiah, yet revere Rabbi Akiva who himself embraced and declared Simon Bar Kochba as Israel’s Messiah, who claims as Messiah were false!!! “Indeed you have a double standard when it comes to dealing with Messianic Jews!” It is by this standard Elohim will measure it out.
Your position that Messianic Judaism is just Christians wearing the Tallit is a pretty cold statement that is not worth a dignified response. I see you’ve gone to the School of Callousness. I only hope that others aren’t as hardened as you!
I believe we’ve beat this subject enough and feel that further hostile arguements get us nowhere fast, but I appreciate some of the common sense dialog any time.
May Adonai bless you and your family.
Once again, you offer only misleading “truths” to validate your claims, and then you dare snivel about callousness?
1. Yes, Jesus was mentioned in Talmud, by Rambam, AS MUCH AS SEVERAL CENTURIES LATER. But where, oh where, besides the Gospels composed by those favorable to him (and the timing of their authorship is up for considerable scholarly debate), are JEWISH accounts IN HIS TIME? Josephus? One or two lines? Have you even read Josephus? You have yet to provide one citation written by “historians” OF THAT TIME that validate Jesus directly as King of the Jews. Romans may well have recorded his existence. I doubt you’ll find support in Roman literature for his spiritual claims! Existing vs. speculative spiritual claims! Two different concepts, one that you are either incapable or deceitfully unwilling to acknowledge. Any account that genuinely supports your claims were written by church historians at least two centuries later, or by the uncircumcized people who took up Christian leadership in Jerusalem after Diaspora.
2. How arrogant you must be to presume that myself or any other Jew does not have a relationship with G-d based off of arguments against your ridiculous, unsourced (with legitimate Jewish proof texts) premises! How ignorant you are of real Jewish spirituality, in any walk of Judaism, to assume that because I might seek to refute you means that I pray with any less kavanah than you.
3. Rabbi Akiva’s relationship with Bar Kochba is yet another instance where you are all too willing to be misleading for the sake of argument. Rabbi Akiva may well have backed Bar Kochba, but there is little historical evidence that he politically backed him or participated in his revolt. Even if he did back him as the messiah, there’s no evidence in either direction that he declared him a deity and the “word made flesh.” Terrific distinction, but he wasn’t the first or the last failed messiah. We venerate him because our tradition tells us he died a martyr, extolling to his last the Oneness of G-d, not proclaiming the divinity of Bar Kochba. If you can’t understand the difference between Akiva and a Messianic’s beliefs, than I would suggest you are being deliberately obtuse, as this is apples and oranges.
4. You use “Hebrew” in the same way that David Stern did in his authorship of the “Jewish New Testament” and its associated commentary. Even he had at least the honesty to admit that his use of Hebrew, and even at times, a Yiddish phrase, was purely retroactively applied. When you quote them as such, it is clearly an attempt to obfuscate that they are merely renamed Christian proof texts. THEY WEREN’T WRITTEN IN HEBREW. Even Helenized Jews opted for Greek, hence why they were Helenized!
This argument is not about civility or even, as you assert when you fail to impress quoting your own proof texts, a Jewish superiority complex. This argument is about a bunch of posers seeking to revisit an age old interest in converting Jews to Christianity, in whatever form it is in, this time by calling yourselves Jews merely by establishing a tenuous connection to a faith that stopped being Jewish only a few hundred years after the Jew at the center died.
You can say you follow Torah, but Torah was preserved by the very Judaism that you implicitly denigrate with your constant citation of the New Testament (call it whatever else you want, it’s completely indistinguishable from protestant Christian canon). Don’t ever come to a Jewish forum, pretend like civility is important to you, and assert that you are a Jew. You don’t know anything about Judaism except as to how it serves your poorly disguised Christian apologetics.
You are not a Jew. You, again, are a Christian in a tallit. If that bruises your delicate sensibilities, perhaps you ought to either go to a Church or get yourself into real Judaism.
The Talmud is to messianics as kryptonite is to Superman, except when they attempt to use it to bolster their guy’s messianic claim. As Sarge noted, the references to Yeshua in the Talmud are off by several hundreds of years. The references to him by Jospehus are, even according to Christian sources, later additions (even if not, the proof is in the pudding—there is no indication whatsoever that Josephus gave us his Orthodox Judaism to become a follwer). Messianic fevor, obviously and logically, increases when the going gets real tough. Sarge is also correct that the Rabbis tried to quell messianic yearnings after the likes of Bar Kova (which led to the destruction of the Temple and our exile) and Sabbatia (which led to great apostacy). The Rabbis were concerned with life and faith, not the man Jesus. This conversation has been typical: We get along marvellously to begin with, but when the messianic learns that we are not buying what they are selling, nor are they accepted by Jews as Jews, the discussion turns ugly. This is likewise the reason for the messianics’ polemic against Rabbinical Judaism; “They dont accept us so we won’t accept them”. James, your talmud is the writings of Paul who overturned the Law and formed his own religion. Our two faiths can’t be recombined. Step off the fence, one side or the other because riding it won’t work. All the best in your continued search.
To Sgt.Krege, you challenge the truth while ignoring historical evidence and thus choose to remain in ignorance. Any further debate with you would be like talking to a rock. Keep your predjudices and enjoy your lofty position in your correct form of Jewishness while you can! Though it seems to have been a waste of time I enjoyed the correspondance, but your constant accusations and ignorance has soured any further exchanges.
It may bear a reminder here.
This is a Jewish website, for Jews in the United States Armed Forces. We are partnered with the Jewish Welfare Board / Jewish Chaplains Council, and some, such as myself, are endorsed by the Aleph Institute.
As ecclesiastical endorsers, they support only *recognized* streams of Judaism (and thus, so too does the Department of Defense). This website will not deviate from that.
Messianics that come to this site looking for civil dialog about their nonsense should look elsewhere. If you want to know why, here’s just a few reasons:
1. Now that there is an ecclesiastical endorser for some messianic groups, we are seeing them in the military. One of them has offered a prayer in front of 3rd Infantry Division on Yom HaShoah as if he is a valid representative of the Jewish culture. He also intercepted seder kits intended for an Orthodox Jewish officer and caused him no end of inconvenience while in theater.
2. Messianic groups deliberately attempt to position their books as “Jewish” in book stores and other places, in attempts to sucker people in. This includes materials distributed to troops.
3. Messianic chaplains, as this article speaks to, have designs on Jewish symbols used to identify Jewish religious personnel in the uniformed services.
4. In one instance of further confusion being sewn by these groups, a Soldier at FOB Warrior in Iraq was misled into believing a Messianic Jewish service was a legitimate Jewish service. To his disgust, the service was listed as a “Jewish” service on the FOB, which confirms what we already know, that some denominations of Christian chaplains are happy to blur the lines either out of ignorance or for more nefarious purposes.
This is a serious issue. If Messianic apologists expect any quarter on this site, they will find none. James attempts at an “honest” dialog were anything but. His grasp on truth sounds like the same hogwash conversioneers have been pushing for years, this one all the more insidious because it pretends to be us. If we’ve learned nothing over the past 2000 years, it’s that those folks generally end up with the blood of Jews on their hands. Maybe it’s not so serious as that here, but the arrogance and duplicity of these people, even the subtle kind that James has demonstrated, should be very telling.
I find it highly unusual that Rabbinical Jews have no problem with the man known as Rabbi Akiva who is revered as agreat teacher within Judaism and the Talmud, but have come to reject and despise any Jew who embraces Yeshua as the HaMasiach! I find it unusual because you and others reject Messianics who you feel believe in a false Messiah, yet revere Rabbi Akiva who himself embraced and declared Simon Bar Kochba as Israel’s Messiah, who claims as Messiah were false!!! “Indeed you have a double standard when it comes to dealing with Messianic Jews!” It is by this standard Elohim will measure it out.
And how do we know that Bar Kochba wasn’t the Messiah? He died failing to usher in the kingdom of God, just as Jesus failed.
There’s nothing wrong about Jews presuming this or that person meets the criteria for being the Messiah – The Rambam, Maimonides, makes this clear in Mishne Torah: Hilchot M’lachim under the laws of Jewish kings.
However, the Rambam makes it clear that if a presumed Messiah does not achieve what the Messiah is supposed to achieve, we can reject him in good faith.
I don’t despise Messianics, I have pity for them because they have sold their heritage for a pot of leftover lentils. A number of Messianics who had formerly been in leadership roles in that movement have returned to traditional Judaism, like Julius Ciss who runs the Toronto office of Jews For Judaism. Even Bruce “Boruch” Goldstein who had been a high level staffer of Jews For Jesus left the movement.
It is interesting that the largest Naval base(Norfolk) on the East coast has a wonderful Jewish chapel but no Jewish chaplain is assigned. Add to that, I saw one single Jewish chaplain for the entire AOR in 2003. Messianic chaplains are better than no Jewish chaplain, regardless of community. It is simply a matter of numbers. I have had Baptist, Catholic, and other chaplains minister to fellow Jews and myself on many occasions. The matter here is that rabbis don’t join the military anymore.
shalom! michael you stood your ground! Yeshua bless you! i grew as a christian and left it 15 years ago! because they are not following in the footsteps of yeshua! instead they are following in the way of the Roman Empire! The menorah is the symbol of yeshua! because he is the light of the world! the cross is a torture method used by the Romans and the ancient egyptian priests used as well!
Oy vey, here we go again! If you believe in Jesus (by any name) as divine or his the vicarious atonement of the Christian Bible, you are not Jewish…period. I have Irish roots yet since I have aligned myself with the beliefs and practices of the United States, I am an American, not an Irishman.
Israel hit the nail squarely on the head as to why messianics should not use the Jewish symbol of affiliation. You cannot steal our symbol for your own purposes. If Jesus is your light, then that’s fine, but he is not for Jews.
And yes doc, it does matter. To whom is the messianic chaplain praying when he asks in Jesus’ name? Their three-part god? Certainly not the G-d of Israel. The air mixed in with water is not ‘better than nothing’ for the land-dweller. It cannot sustain their life. Neither is a Christian posing as a Jew ‘better than nothing’ as they, likewise, cannot sustain the spiritual life of the Jew. Shalom!
It’s amazing they keep coming back for a post almost two years stale. It must be linked from an Evangelical/Messimaniac website as an example of the forces of Satan standing in the way of their truth.
And there it is again, the circuitious paradox of Messianic belief. “They don’t walk in the way of [sic] Yeshua(suppositional malapropism)” – but how do they know? Because their proof texts–ironically cobbled together by the very church they rail against–say so. And if the church went wrong at some point along the way, was it before or after much of the derivative doctrine that Messianics inherit from Ambrose or Chrysostom, both on the record as avid anti-Semites…they can’t tiptoe around the difficulties their belief, and they never adequately answer to that.
But Jesus is a darn menorah, donchaknow, and that allows us to leapfrog the incredible fallacies that underpin our entire belief system.
I’ve come to believe that its not adequate to merely have an in-depth understanding of Judaism to reject the missionaries…it’s almost more relevant to scrutinize the evolution of Christian doctrine and weigh that against the Messianic manifesto, if you will. All of our faiths are victims, to a degree, of the often conflicting works of our luminaries, but Judaism early on adopted mechanisms for dealing with that (reading a wonderful translation of Aggadah from the Talmud right now – which contains beautiful little stories about how our sages worked out differences)…but Messimania has to borrow liberally from two traditions in order to be what it is, and indeed, this sets it up for twice the failure.
That said, if you don’t take your faith seriously or have a personal universalist dogma that’s platform agnostic, by all means, be okay with having non-Jews minister to you. There’s wisdom to be found from even those we disagree with. But I won’t convocate in mixed company under their spiritual terms because resisting avodah zara means something to me, as it should to any Jew with a shred of Judaic self. If I allow a Baptist to minister to me on a spiritual level, I am tacitly saying that I am okay with the concept of a Triune G-d and that G-d became a man, chas v’shalom, and that doesn’t sit well when we acknowledge several times a day that there is only One and there is no other.
Sarge,
Thanks for keeping the lines open even though the thread itself may be stale and, obviously, redundant. Shalom!
It is ridiculous for Messianic Jewish chaplains to wear the cross when they are Jewish by birth. Just because a Jew accepts Yeshua Jesus as their Messiah does not mean they become less Jewish and they are certainly not Christian either. As it has been said above even Universalist’s wear the cross and they know nothing of Christianity and I would not want them to counsel me. What if someone becomes a chaplain and yet he belongs to the Church of Satan, are you going to force him to wear a cross which they abhor, no! Hopefully they would give them a lapel pin of devil horns and pitchfork. If not the tablets, then let them wear a Star of David with the cross in the middle of it to signify they are Messianic Jews.
Rev. Bob,
I believe I understand your point. Perhaps with a bit more discussion, you can understand ours.
1) First, let’s turn the tables a bit and see if clarity shines forth. I am an Ordained Minister who converted to Judaism years ago. If I were to become a Chaplain, would you feel it appropriate for me to wear the cross insignia? I doubt so, since I am no longer a Christian or believe in the tenants of Christianity. Therefore said symbol does not appropriately characterize my faith. The same is true of so-called Messianic Jews. When a Jew, or anyone else for that matter, accepts Jesus/Yeshua as G-d incarnate or as part of a godhead, he or she is a Christian, period, and no longer whatever faith they came from. Such a belief is 100% antithetical to the Jewish faith. Just as I, a Baptist Minister turned Jew am no longer a Christian, Messianics are no longer (spiritually) Jews.
2) There are only so many insignia that are available. This is the government! They are not going to just make up a new symbol all of the sudden for anybody. Just look at the symbols in National Cemeteries. Undoubtedly there are a few (at the very least) Unitarians and even Atheists buried under crosses. May they rest in peace. The point is not whether the military should or could make up another symbol for Messianics, Unitarians, Humanists, Atheists, etc. The point is should someone who is no longer a Jew, spiritually, wear an insignia that says they are? And no, as one person put forth earlier in the discussion, a messianic rabbi is not better than no rabbi at all, unless you believe cardboard is better than no food at all.
3) The insignias reflect religious/spiritual belief, not ethnicity. There is no insignia, baruch HaShem, for African-Americans, Italians or Palestinians. Ethnic Jews who are now Christians are Christians, just as Arab Christians are no longer Muslim and I am no longer Christian.
4) The effort to make the Jewish insignia available for use by Messianics has not occurred in a vacuum. Christian Chaplains have fought for years, even to the point of asking for an Executive order from the President, to be able to “Pray at ALL times in Jesus’ name” (emphasis mine); Regardless of the type service; regardless of the religious faith of the person they have come to minister to. I had this discussion with a high-ranking Navy Chaplain years ago. He was adamant about this and said that if a Jew came to him and didn’t want to hear about Jesus he’d send them on to his Chaplain’s Assistant who happened to be Jewish. A Jew’s dying prayer or words of comfort should not be from a missionary trying to convert him or her! Likewise, the Messianic whose actions started this whole debate decided it was more important for him to make his point than to serve his comrades in the position of chaplain. You see, there is a respect issue underlying all of this. The only reason why Christians insist that “Once a Jew, always a Jew” is that a Jew’s conversion, to them, verifies and validates Christianity’s claims of superiority. After all, if you can convert a Jew, one of G-d’s chosen, then certainly your faith must be in the right place. A Jew, especially the scarce Orthodox Jew, who becomes a Christian, is a wonderful notch on a Christian’s spiritual belt. I won’t go in to our importance as catalysts for Jesus’ second coming (sic) here as it is outside the current discussion.
5) No! And hell no! We do NOT wish to force the Satanist or anyone else on Christianity. You have actually made our point for us, whether wittingly or unwittingly, because, at the same time, we don’t want Christians in Kippot forced upon us. Why is it only you get to chose who is and who is not a Christian or a Jew?????
If you feel the Unitarian or the Satanist or the atheists wearing a cross insignia is inappropriate (which I believe everyone on this post would agree, at least on the latter), then I’d expect you to be having the same dialogue we are having here and be equally outraged. Shalom!
It’s easy to see why some Jewish people would object to the Jewish insignia on Messianic chaplains. But I would expect some Christians to object to these chaplains wearing the cross. It’s a Jewish question as who is a Jew, and it’s a Christian question as to who is a Christian.
Some Messianics are offended by the cross symbol. Enforcing its use is reminiscent of forcing the wearing of the yellow Star of David. How would anyone feel if they were forced to wear a swastika?
Perhaps Messianics would be agreeable to designing and wearing a third symbol. After all, it’s all about communication, isn’t it? Why bring the army and airforce into what is essentially an internal dispute?
Please elaborate on how a Messianic would be “offended” by the cross symbol? If they believe Jesus is the messiah and that he was crucified, why would this be an offensive symbol?
I could see how some might not *like* wearing the cross (although I can’t help but think that would be for subversive purposes), but to equate it to making Jews wear swastika seems like a bit of a stretch.
What do Hindu (etc) chaplains wear? It seems like there might be a non-denominational chaplain symbol for those that don’t fit into the “big three”. This would be the case for Messianics.
Hi Capt Rubin.
I chose the example of the swastika because for you and me in North America that symbol evokes an emotional response due to it’s use by the Nazis. But the symbol hasn’t always had the meaning that it has for us today. Yet, would we argue that since it has (perhaps) benign origins, we should not be offended by it?
Likewise, while most Christians happily wear the cross as a symbol of their faith, for the reason that you noted, there are many who regard it as a pagan symbol. Also, there are Messianics who associate it with it’s use during the Crusades, and for that reason disdain it as a symbol of their religion. This is a huge discussion, and my point here is to ask you not to assume that Messianics are removing their crosses just to fool people.
The symbol worn by chaplains should be there for communication purposes, so people know what faith they represent. Jesus never put on big glasses with a fake nose and moustache so he could trick people into following him. If people are hiding behind symbols of faith in order to trick people, I have to agree that it’s wrong.