LINK to JIG story.

What do you think about the issue of Jewish chaplains being allowed to grow a beard?

If it opens the door to Chaplains/Rabbis that would otherwise not join, I would put in a ‘waiver’ for Chaplains/Rabbis.

As I noted on my comment on the main website, the picture of Rabbi/Chaplain Goldstein with his beard, shows that there is some way (although probably a very round-about one) around the issue.

Dee

The Forward article discusses how Rabbi Goldstein keeps his beard.  In a nutshell, it was allowed when he came in and he sort of has a “grandfather” clause that allows him to abide by those original regs.  Rabbi Goldstein feels very strongly about the issue and has some choice words for the Army about its regs.

I personally think they should be allowed to have a beard.  If the gas mask thing is really an issue, then the Rabbis should be able to choose to take that risk.  If a bearded rabbi was deployed in a combat zone where chemical weapons were a significant risk, I would think that just about any Chabadnik would agree that shaving would be appropriate (in that specific case).  After all, we are supposed to live by the commandments, not die by them.

Lt Rubin - 25 August 2005 01:26 PM

The Forward article discusses how Rabbi Goldstein keeps his beard.  In a nutshell, it was allowed when he came in and he sort of has a “grandfather” clause that allows him to abide by those original regs.  Rabbi Goldstein feels very strongly about the issue and has some choice words for the Army about its regs.

I personally think they should be allowed to have a beard.  If the gas mask thing is really an issue, then the Rabbis should be able to choose to take that risk.  If a bearded rabbi was deployed in a combat zone where chemical weapons were a significant risk, I would think that just about any Chabadnik would agree that shaving would be appropriate (in that specific case).  After all, we are supposed to live by the commandments, not die by them.

Also, is there not a way to get a gas mask that can be used with a beard?

In the Australian Army you can keep a beard if:

A. You are religious,
B. Medical grounds,
C. A member of SF

I am an Officier Trainee and I wear a beard, I stand out and I get evey second person asking who, what and how, but I can keep it.

Orthodox Jewish personnel in the British services can wear beards with permission.  my own staff captain is ‘frum’ and I had no problem getting authorisation for him.

There are plenty of ways to fit a gas mask with a reasonable beard, so that is really not an issue. Many NATO militaries (especially Navies) do it all the time, as does the civilian world.

What I would ask all of you to do is look clearly and carefully at what a chaplain needs to be able to do in the military. For a Rabbi is first and foremost there as a Chaplain and secondarily there to serve their own faith group.
A chaplain has to be able to advise the commander on religious and spiritual matters open and honestly. They have to be available for all soldiers in the command (not just the Jewish ones) as the mission requires. They have to be able to support, counsel, talk to the bereaved, the greaving and the depressed. They have to open ceremonies and give invocations.
The chaplain has to be qualified under the Geneva convention as an exempt religious person and they have to be accepted as = to a pastor, minister, priest (for the other faiths).
Oh, yes - they have to perform worship services for members of their own faith group.

Now, the following is going to upset a number of you, but there are problems with a couple of the proposals out there

1) Cantors as Chaplains - not going to work. They are not = to ministers, pastors, priests. They might be able to run Jewish services, but they do not hold the same position and don’t qualify.

2) very observant. The commanders have issues - their chaplain is not there when they need him. Is not there when the soldiers need him. A war runs seven days a week and the commander is without a key member of his/her staff. So what happens is that the chaplain’s contribution gets discounted. Or the chaplain’s assistant attends the meetings. The chaplain does not travel to another camp when a unit’s soldier is killed because it would mean driving in a vehicle.
Or, on the Jewish front - when a women raised in Israel who attended yeshiva and reads Torah well is denied an Aliyah because the Rabbi will not call on her.

So beards are not the issue.

the issue is attracting Rabbis to the military who are going to be
1) good officers
2) good Chaplains
3) serve the needs of the majority of the Jews in their community. By doing that they will meet the needs of the observant members. One can put up a mehitzah to provide privacy for men who would like to be separated, one can not take away the pain of being denied an honor or a chance to worship.

just my humble opinion after kicking around for 25 years and a lot of duty stations.

-Holly

This has been a topic of discussion with Rabbi (MAJ) Felzenberg and myself.

If beards are ever allowed, we would see a huge influx of Chabad Rabbis.  But it is up to the Chief of Chaplains.  At this time it is not allowed.

One exemption.  Certain units, and activities, can merit a Memorandum authorizing a reduced grooming standard.  We use this currently where we need to fit in among Muslims (local nationals).  Such a memorandum can authorize beards or civilian clothes.  An unit commander would issue this.

The issue goes beyond beards. One of the key obstacles standing between me and enlisting is that I’ll have to cut off my peios, and I refuse to do that. (For those who are unfamiliar, the Torah forbids men to round off the corners of the head.) If they’d allow that little bit of air in the crew cut, it would really help, especially to get more religious personnel, especially Chaplains.

And to address Doyne’s points,

1. I agree. A cantor isn’t a Rabbi. A Chaplain can become a Rabbi, but just by definition is not.

2. I understand where you’re coming from, but what type of Chaplain would he be if he didn’t care about the obligations of the religion he’s representing? Yes, it may be inconvenient at times, but there are ways around it. And also, from what I understand (and please correct me if I’ve misunderstood), in general a more religious chaplain will be more tolerant of the less-religious than a non-religious chaplain will be of a religious one.

Even if this isn’t the case, the more religious Chaplains, the more religious servicemen. I know I’d feel more comfortable enlisting if I knew more religious Jews had done the same.

I understand that I’m there to serve the military, not the other way around, but there are many elements that are so small (like the haircut) and could easily be taken care of, it seems crazy that it hasn’t been already with all the strides the military’s taken to make itself more “religion-friendly.”

The thing is Chaim, if by religious, you mean Orthodox, there are already more Orthodox chaplains than others, especially in the Army.  At the last JWB conference, you should have seen the contingent discussing RCA matters vs. the size of the other movements.  We recently blogged about the small number of chaplain candidates emerging from the Reform movement.

And the truth is, the dynamics of who is friendly to whom is always an individual matter, not a characteristic of observance styles.  There are many instances where self-identified Jews who might meet the standards of various movements but not the chaplain’s in question may not receive the attention they are due as service members.  Most of the Reform or Conservative chaplains I’ve met in the service have been absolutely appreciative or accommodating of Orthodox soldiers.  Our wonderful rabbi in the PA Guard is Orthodox, but we still davened with a Conservative shul in Louisiana whilst we were deployed for hurricane relief.  Granted, we were both anxious to get back to base before sundown.  Bottom line, it’s a matter of duty for a chaplain to meet the spiritual needs of *all* soldiers, whether by his own effort or by coordinating appropriate persons to do so.

It’s sad that the question has to be “what I can or can’t do in uniform.” These things we concern ourselves with take away from our command’s time to be mission-focused, and take away from our own time to make ourselves mission capable.  It can be absolutely debilitating at times, for the sake of good order and discipline, to have to CONSTANTLY answer questions about tzitzit and kippot from the uninformed.  I can’t imagine having to deal with explaining peyot.  I’m imagining, however, if the rabbinical chaplains find dispensation for their removal, you can find some from your LOR.

Personally, I’m happy with the current allowances, as it’s taken a long time to get where we are.  Beards would be nice, but if Major Felzenberg and others can roll with it, so too can I.  It works in the Israeli army because even with the presence of Druse and other groups, it’s still fairly homogeneous.  In ours, however, it wouldn’t be long before other ethnic and religious minorities begin to ask for allowances as well.  Sikhs with knives, etc., and it could be argued that philo-religious practices in regulation could lead to a degradation of the force.

My wife and I discussed this at one time, especially since I can retire from the Guard in a few years.  Hair, with the exception of what disappears off our heads, grows back.

The thing is Chaim, if by religious, you mean Orthodox, there are already more Orthodox chaplains than others, especially in the Army.  At the last JWB conference, you should have seen the contingent discussing RCA matters vs. the size of the other movements.  We recently blogged about the small number of chaplain candidates emerging from the Reform movement.

I was wondering about that as well. I’ve asked a couple Rabbis (just as a side point) and they weren’t sure what the heter (allowance) was. And yes, I saw that article. Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn’t that make more sense? I mean, the less religious one is, the less they need. Someone who’s reform would really only request menorah’s during Chanuka, etc., and if he couldn’t get it, that’s still alright, as opposed to a Conservative or Orthodox, where he may require certain things, which his Chaplain could help get him. Either way, though, I hate labels, which is why I said religious.

And the truth is, the dynamics of who is friendly to whom is always an individual matter, not a characteristic of observance styles.  There are many instances where self-identified Jews who might meet the standards of various movements but not the chaplain’s in question may not receive the attention they are due as service members.  Most of the Reform or Conservative chaplains I’ve met in the service have been absolutely appreciative or accommodating of Orthodox soldiers.  Our wonderful rabbi in the PA Guard is Orthodox, but we still davened with a Conservative shul in Louisiana whilst we were deployed for hurricane relief.  Granted, we were both anxious to get back to base before sundown.  Bottom line, it’s a matter of duty for a chaplain to meet the spiritual needs of *all* soldiers, whether by his own effort or by coordinating appropriate persons to do so.

I’m glad to hear that. I’ve just heard from various others that it’s (understandably) harder for someone who doesn’t practice to accommodate someone who does. I’m glad that’s incorrect.

It’s sad that the question has to be “what I can or can’t do in uniform.” These things we concern ourselves with take away from our command’s time to be mission-focused, and take away from our own time to make ourselves mission capable.

I understand that, but

1. I’m a Jew first and a patriot second,
2. How can I defend the freedoms we all enjoy if I’m forced to infringe on them in the process?

If I were to, say, join the FBI or my local police force, most of these problems would be solved. I’m willing to make sacrifices, but not everything can be sacrificed.

It can be absolutely debilitating at times, for the sake of good order and discipline, to have to CONSTANTLY answer questions about tzitzit and kippot from the uninformed.  I can’t imagine having to deal with explaining peyot.

Personally I love explaining why I’m doing what I’m doing, especially to another Jew. As for one who may not, there are the generic “it’s for religious purposes, in Exodus/Numbers xx:xx” etc. Or, *shrug* wear your tzitzis in, keep your beret/cap, etc. on, and who’s going to ask you about Peyos during BCT?

I’m imagining, however, if the rabbinical chaplains find dispensation for their removal, you can find some from your LOR.

Apparently, but I’d have to see how, as, like I mentioned, the ones I asked don’t know.

In ours, however, it wouldn’t be long before other ethnic and religious minorities begin to ask for allowances as well.  Sikhs with knives, etc., and it could be argued that philo-religious practices in regulation could lead to a degradation of the force.

Again, there are limits, I agree, but I don’t see how peyos or davening during chow time will disrupt. There are some things that can’t be enforced, like Cholov Yisroel, yoshon, and the like, but others can be without too much difficulty, and I don’t see why they don’t, especially for Chaplains. Beards would be nice, I agree, and if it can be arranged, great, but it’s not a requirement, whereas these are.

Hair, with the exception of what disappears off our heads, grows back.

:) That still may not justify cutting it off in the first place anymore than “food digests,” You know what I’m saying?

Your question, and I paraphrase, as to how you defend our freedoms if you’re forced to infringe on them in the process, is one I ask myself daily.  We give up a ton of other rights in our service, including elements of free speech, and sometimes that grates more than religious difficulties.

The davening is not a problem, at chow or anytime, except of course for critical times.  I once caused some trouble when I davened during “stand to”, a grossly dated Army tradition in the field.  I figured it was a nice quiet time, who knew?

I wouldn’t see the trouble with peyot coming from necessarily any physical problem they represent to military function.  One need only point to the Israelis.  The problem is the penchant for us all to look uniform standing in a line.  I truthfully don’t believe it will ever change.

It really must be said that the military is not a supportive place for the frum, especially if you desire to serve in a combat role.  Even combat service (supply, trans, commo) are tough because they often travel and work in line with the combat units.  You can find a job in the military, even outside the chaplaincy, where Cholov Yisroel is a possibility.  My ex-wife had this capacity; she enlisted in the Air Force and spent a significant chunk of her duty just outside of D.C. and Baltimore.

I should clarify the part about explaining, too.  I love to educate anyone interested about our traditions.  The problem is, the questions often aren’t raised because they’re curious.  They’re often raised to call you out and shame you for being different, as if they’re the first individual that noticed your kippah or that your sideburns are a little bit longer than the regs allow.  When you work constantly with the same people, it’s not so bad, of course.  Then it really is curiosity that drives the queries.

I’m sure you could find a nice MO rabbi that would tell you it’s okay to cut away…

Anyhow, I’m glad you’re asking the questions now rather than enlisting and being surprised by the realities of the situation later.  Best of luck!

Interesting idea :) I hope you weren’t chewed out too much for that. I also see what they mean with payos, but aren’t people allowed to grow their hair to a point after BCT?

I don’t think I’ll be doing something combat, probably Intel or something in computers. Where do you think that would put me? I’d love to be in the DC/Baltimore area, but I know I can’t count on it.

I’m sure there’s some sort of discrimination on a personal scale, but you’re going to get that wherever you go. At least here it would be covered by a zero-tolerance policy.

MikeBram said in a different thread that halachically it’s ok to go with the military buzz. Have you heard something similar?

I did not say that a ‘military buzz’ was ok. That’s a subjective term that can have many definitions. What I said is that the minimum requirement for payos is not very long. You can certianly conform to military standards while keeping halachic payos on your head. Some ‘military buzz’ cuts might be too short and others might be ok.

I see. I apologize for mis-quoting you. Is that something I could request at Processing? Or is it just “luck of the draw?”

I’d like to clarify something I think is a misunderstanding in this thread--that Reform rabbis wouldn’t be able to minister to Orthodox Jews because they don’t know all the observances and requirements.

I certainly don’t know all Reform rabbis, but if the two rabbis at my synagogue are at all representative (and I believe they are), they know everything and they follow quite a bit of it. 

I wish more Reform rabbis would join the military; it would give the whole movement a perspective that I think is currently lacking.